Michael

Coins

Ltd

Home

Ex-Shop

About Michael

Terms

Grading

Code & Ref

GB Coin list

Extras !

British Banknotes

Our Books, etc

World Coins

World Banknotes

Ancients

Other Lists

Record & Video

 

          COIN CLUB

Reading Coin Club

CP 1858 A

1858 Copper Penny (Type 1- with W.W.) - Large numerals [11 beads wide]

* Note: Larger border bead to centre and back of 5.

 

 

  CP 1858 Aa

1858 Copper Penny (Type 1 - with W.W.) - Large numerals

Last 8 over 8  - See mis-aligned colon dots

 

 

NO PICTURE !

CP 1858 B

 

1858 Copper Penny (Type 1- with W.W.) - Date: 8 over 3  

This variety was first listed by Bramah - as 25b. 

Peck also lists it as P. 1515 but states "no convincing specimen of which has yet been found: it seems unlikely".

I fully concur with Peck and consider that an altered date of 8 over 3 is very unlikely.

Firstly any 1853 dies that remained, at the end of production in 1853, were used up in 1854 - prior to any 1854 'unaltered' dies being produced and used.  ALL of the remaining left over 1853 dies would have been used. However, if by accident any 1853 dies were left over they would have been used, probably, in 1855. But there are NO 'altered' date die coins known for 1855. 

Therefore, by 1858 it seems highly unlikely that anyone in the Mint would have put to one side or kept any old 1853 dies!

Lastly none of the styles or spacing of the numerals for 1853 match those used in 1858 !!

All the examples I have seen are unconvincing. 

The coin that I list as CP 1858 G (8 over ??) see picture below - is often listed as 1858 over 3. However !?

 

CP 1858 G   3 from 1853 die

If it were a 3 - the 'ball' at the ends of the top and bottom limbs would show - they don't. The 8 on the lower left side has a flat bit at 8 o'clock that goes across and then sticks out, within the lower circle of the 8 which is puzzling - but I don't believe it is the bottom 'rounded' leg of a 3 

 

  CP 1858 C

1858 Copper Penny (Type 1- with W.W.) - Date: 8 over 6 [10 beads wide]

 

  CP 1858 D  

1858 Copper Penny (Type 1 - with W.W.) - Date: 8 over 7 [Style  1]

None of the top bar of the 7 shows to the left of the 8

Top bar of 7 shows under top circle of 8 and a small tip of the back of the 7 bar - at top right.

None of the down-leg of the 7 appears to be visible in the lower circle of the 8.

A 'tiny' part of the foot of the 7 can also be seen just to the outside centre of the lower loop of the 8.

The 5 and last 8 very close.

The numerals are in line at their base.

 

CP 1858 Da

1858 Copper Penny (Type 1 - with W.W.) - Date: 8 over 7 [Style  1a]

None of the top bar of the 7 shows to the left of the 8

Top bar of 7 shows under top circle of 8 and a small tip of the back of the 7 bar - at top right.

The down stroke shows clearly down the centre of the the lower 8 circle.

The numerals are in line at their base.

 

CP 1858 Db 

1858 Copper Penny (Type 1- with W.W.) - Date: 8 over 7 [Style 2]

The top bar of the 7 extends to the outside left of the top of the 8 and under the top curve (inside the upper circle)

None of the down-leg of the 7 appears to be visible in the lower circle of the 8.

Both 8's are higher than 1 & 5.

 

      CP 1858 Dc

1858 Copper Penny (Type 1 - with W.W.) - Date: 8 over 7 [Style  3]

The top bar of the 7 extends to the outside left of the top of the 8 (less shows than on CP 1858 Db)

and under the top curve (inside the upper circle).

In the lower circle of the 8 - the lower leg of the 7 can be seen running downwards, on the inside right side. 

A 'tiny' part of the foot of the 7 can also be seen just to the outside centre of the lower loop of the 8.

The numerals are in line at their base.

 

 

  CP 1858 Dd

1858 Copper Penny (Type 1 - with W.W.) - Date: 8 over 7  [Style 4]

All the numerals 1858 are double struck - as well as the last 8 being over a 7

The top bar of the 7 extends to the outside left of the top of the 8 and under the top curve (inside the upper circle).

In the lower circle of the 8 - the lower leg of the 7 can be seen running downwards, on the inside right side. 

A 'tiny' part of the foot of the 7 can also be seen just to the outside centre of the lower loop of the 8 (similar to  the picture of CP 1858 Db).

The numerals are in line at their base.

 

 

CP 1858 E  CP1858Ea

1858 Copper Penny (Type 1- with W.W.) Smaller numerals '5 & 8's'  

Between 10 & 10 1/2 beads wide - depending on angle that the last 8 was punched in.

Last 8 centrally over bead or gap.

Larger bead to centre and right of centre of 5.

 

 

CP 1858 G     

1858 Copper Penny (Type 1 - with W.W.) Date: 8 over !? 

This overdate is really difficult to really say what it is over !

There is a bit to the right of the centre of the 8 !

But the bit to the right of the centre of the 8 could be just a bit of grit, dirt, etc that is imbedded in the die. 

The more puzzling part of the 8 is the flat bit at 8 o'clock that is above the height of the numeral. This mark cuts into the lower circle of the 8 !? (No numeral used in this period appears to have a flat bit as such ??).

This variety is often described as 1858 over 3 - and in away it is understandable as to why - as below I have taken the 8 and in the picture next to it I have cut away parts to leave just the shape of a 3. 

Plus I have added a genuine 3 from the 1853 die - to show the difference.

However I do not believe that it is a 3 - with a flat top instead of a ball. If it were a 3 then it was not from an 1853 die as all the dies of 1853 are differently spaced.

I believe that the last 8 was being repaired- but with what !!!

    

      8 over ?              8 with bits cut     Genuine 3 from 1853

 

CP 1858Ga    

On the example CP 1858 Ga - there is a similar bit to the right of centre of the 8.

This time within the centre circles at the left hand side there is clearly another left side of an 8.

There is also the outline of an 8 outside the 8. 

Therefore CP 1858 G could simply be the repair to a defective or worn 8  &

CP1858 Ga could be a repair with  a single 'fatter' 8 or an 8 struck twice - 

as the first strike was NOT well aligned !?

 

For the variety CP 1858 G - Does any one have a more logical explanation ?!

 

    CP 1858 Ha    (enlargement) 

1858 Copper Penny (Type 5 - no WW) Large date

Tall slim 1 - bases of numerals aligned. 

Larger double bead central below 5 

Note: Some examples like this one 'Ha' show a 'small' 1 over 1 - a bit shows below the top bar and to the left.

 

CP 1858 Hb - As Ha but with all numerals are double struck.

 

CP 1858 Hc

1858 Copper Penny (Type 5 - no WW) Large date - similar to Ha, except that

Last 8 is slightly closer to the 5 

 

CP 1858 Hd

1858 Copper Penny (Type 5 - no WW) Large date, similar to Ha & Hb (numerals double struck) & Hc

Except that now, the tall 1 has now been aligned with the top of the numerals and the base of the 1 is lower

On this example all of the numerals are slightly double struck

 

  CP 1858 He

1858 Copper Penny (Type 5 - no WW) Large date

The 1 is now of the same size font as the other numerals and aligned top and base.

On this example all of the numerals are slightly double struck

 

Back to Copper Pennies